TOO MANY STUPID QUESTIONS
Submitted by ddwyer on Thu, 04/24/2008 - 4:16am.
The forum is being choked with too many pointless and stupid questions , i assume people must google "VOIP Software" and find trixbox , that seems to be their technical ability , because the next thing they do is ask stupid questions , or install trixbox and ask the "all circuits are busy" question .
the forums need to be moderated a little , maybe posts could be marked as SPAM but the community and then a moderator could assess whether to delete of not .
also i feel that some posts need to be sticky so some idiot does keep asking the same question.
the forum used to be a great resource for sharing information , and discussing techincal issues but this content is all now being dictated by the newbies and spoiling the potential usefullness of the forum.
I want so badly to weigh in
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 6:27am
I want so badly to weigh in on this, but doing so without seeming petty is like walking through a minefield.
Ok, first of all what you and I want for this forum does not necessarily match what the people running this forum want for this forum. That is to say, while some of the goals of the management and the contributing userbase may align on occasion, the actual core purpose is seen differently.
All forums require moderation, but if the people doing the moderation have some motivation other than what you think it should be, then, of course, the "moderation" that actually happens may not make sense to you. This isn't just at these forums either. Specifically with regards to Asterisk stuff: FreePBX has their agenda, NerdVittles/PiAF has theirs, trixbox has theirs, the Digium forum has their own and so on. Even the mailing lists and IRC suffer from this selfish attitude. Personally, I find this increasingly bothersome and irritating But that's all I'm going to say about that. For now.
Now, on to your specific gripes:
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because the next thing they do is ask stupid questions , or install trixbox and ask the "all circuits are busy" question .
Just because you have similar symptoms doesn't mean the root cause is the same. I know it's just an example, but especially the "all circuits are busy" issue. There are a lot of things that cause this. As annoying as it can be, every situation (should you even bother to try to help at all -- there's no obligation) is potentially different.
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also i feel that some posts need to be sticky so some idiot does keep asking the same question.
This doesn't solve anything. The same people who don't search don't bother to read sticky posts. You can lead a horse to water and all that.
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the forum used to be a great resource for sharing information , and discussing techincal issues but this content is all now being dictated by the newbies and spoiling the potential usefullness of the forum.
trixbox attracts newbies. There's nothing anyone can really do about that, and newbies in and of themselves aren't bad. Everyone has to start somewhere, and some newbies grow up to be excellent contributors. The ones that bother you, like the ones that won't read a damn thing, you just have to let it slide off your back. You can't do anything about what other people do, so getting worked up over it just poisons you. I have to remind myself of that all the time, but I'm getting better.
ddwyr, I see where you are
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 6:40am
ddwyr, I see where you are coming from. This is exactly why I spent time on making the website (link is on my signature) for the newbies. I had nothing to do while sitting on the airplane, with a delay, so I just took what I had and make the website. If I get really bored with a computer in front of me, I guess I can continue adding stuff. But if we get more websites like this, I think we should put this on the trixbox forum homepage or something like that. This way, if people actually read it, this will reduce the number of posts p the forum.
I'm not against the fact that the forum is starting to become full of newbie's questions, because that's what the forum is for. However, before I judge, I look at both sides, and I can see exactly where you are coming from. I think you should suggest to _require_ users to visit other resources before they even post anything.
i agree
i used to come here
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 7:42am
forums
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 7:56am
There are no dumb / STUPID QUESTIONS
well there are they are the ones which are not asked.
What is needed is a read only forum for newbies the forum should be
only posted to by a certain level of member (rated by the whole techie members)
Newbies would have to post to a forum / news group in which the higher rated members answer
as a issue is addressed; the posting and the answers (the right ones) would then be moved the Newbies read only area. (I think FAQ but in forum format as they just do not read the WiKi / FAQ nor do they search the current forum)
To move up they would need to prove they have the skills to provide answers..maybe a online course which they must pass.
WE should be policing ourselves, but it has become a sort of "tragedy of commons".
To many people with different ways of doing things (some right / many wrong)
We need a new sheriff to police the lot of us.
RSS feed anyone??
There are no stupid
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 7:59am
There are no stupid questions........
Anyhow This is like a class system some Newbs become users, some users become power users some power users become experts and the lucky few experts become gurus.
Should people only deal with people in their own class.... the blind leading the blind?
Really If everyone cast out all the groups below them their would be no advancement. Obviously it can be frustrating to play google proxy but the simple solution is DON'T. If you are annoyed, put off or offended by someone who knows about as much as you did when you entered this world then simply avoid the topics. I would support an advanced/technical/developers forum but truth is that will face the same issues you will have people who can set up Asterisk GUI free and have it make toast and you will have others who can do a smashing job gui side and probably write docs up but cant start an ssh session to save their grandmas life.
As fun as it is to rant on newbs and people who know less than you it is a never ending cycle. You remove a class the next class takes its place and no progress until your class is at the bottom and guess who is next on the chopping block.
These are community forums and communities have all levels of people. Asterisk is gaining thousands of users every day, those folks have 2 choices pick up the future of telephony book or use a gui and ask a hundred questions here. This is the faster option in a world of instant gratification and short trials where if you spend more than a day setting it up it is scrapped.
As is life you deal with newbs or your project doesn't grow and ultimately fails, then you are standing their with your elitism on a project that is no more
If only the wiki was better / stable
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 9:05am
If the wiki was stable (are we on the 3rd iteration in a year now?) and didn't lose articles, then a lot of traffic could be redirected there. However, I haven't found that to be the case so I'm reluctant to expend further effort there ...
The mixed blessing of these forums is they require little extra effort from its keepers and hence they exist as a vibrant busy (and noisy) place, but with a bit of effort in the wiki, it could become an awesome resource.
We all do what we can ;)
2 more cents
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 9:43am
We are somewhat limited by the forum software.
I made the mistake once of trying to post a funny flippant response to a newb question and was flamed so I agree with the advice if you don't feel like answering then don't.
The level of urgency thing gets to me, and the opinion of the product suffers when someone goes to install trix live at a business.
The entry level for a platform to run it on is so low there is no excuse for not having a test machine (or two if you are linking) machines around.
When I get annoyed/frustrated I simply have to remember to be grateful. Tho software is free, it works and works very well. It is very easy to extend. It is this very openness that makes it easy to break it.
All I have to remember is that Cisco Unified Call Manager seats currently list at $345.00 each. There is no such thing as a command line interface, you are locked out of the OS.
To come back to the forum issue, one of the best run forum's (in my opinion) is the AV Science Forum. Take a look at some of the threads, it has a nice atmosphere and tremendous depth.
Scott
--
Scott
aka "Skyking"
I agree with James
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 9:52am
I agree with James (jfinstrom).
You can't delineate between noobies and gurus in such a fashion that you punish the noobies and create an "experienced" versus "don't-know-what-they're-doing" groups.
We were all noobies once. I've noticed even the "experienced" members (including myself) ask what can be considered noobie questions in certain areas.
I thought this forum was to help others with their trixboxes...
so the ones who know can teach the ones who don't know, and not create a class system.
Given...their are occasional questions from people who want to "convert an island nation to trixbox" CASE IN POINT ☺
But those are a very small percentage.
The point is...if a particular noobie post bothers you... IGNORE IT!! and let someone with more patience answer their question.
Don't try to punish noobies just because you consider yourself NOT to be one.
This kind of tactic soon makes everyone scared to post a question because they'll be concerned that they'll get flamed for noobiness. And if the forum is separated between guru and idiot... no one will know where to post a question for fear of THE ROASTING that might take place.
And as bubbapcguy said, the only stupid question is one that is not asked.
The problem is, last year,
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 10:22am
The problem is, last year, the newbies actually gave lots of specs. Now we need to be "dentists" (as kodak describes) and we gotta pull out 32 teeth just to at least try to suspect what the problem is. And then we get yelled at by them for them just describing the least they can.
The major issue is, they are depending on us to help, because they couldn't spend the extra cash on a tech. I can understand that. But what I don't understand is how they just take the systems and put it in production, and think that "oh ok, I'll just do the testing on the production box. Eh what the hell, who needs a backup, I'll just reinstall" and then we get pounded on the forums. This doesn't happen with all posts, but we all know it did happen several times. That's the problem. This is what the forum is for though- but they are just pushing their luck. We need a special website for them to look at before they pound on us.
I say!
If everyone would
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 10:43am
I say!
If everyone would feel like you did then trixbox would not be as big as it is now (and growing),
If it where not for this forum I would not have 15 trixbox systems up and running, I have asked some pretty dumb questions here ( to some people) but not dumb to me as I am trying to become you and be at your level. Sure I can read ( and I do) but sometimes it is easier to come here and ask the question. I have all the books I can find about trixbox (1 by kerryg (Great Book) needs to be updated please), so don't kill the newbe as you where one once.
We ALL crawl before we walk.
Never mind
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 10:58am
I see all of your points BUT
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 11:20am
I love trixbox and what it can do and what it will do, But I AM BROKE, I do not do this as a business as some of you do, I do not install trixbox to make money off a FREE product, If I had the money I would go to the training classes and have paid support but I don't, The problem as I see it is if you MAKE a newbe go to another site where they can not ask any questions they will stop coming and then where would trixbox be? I agree that there should be somthing done, but making someone new to trixbox go some place else to get help is just wrong, If there needs to be something done then try this send the xperts and guru's to another forum or site and leave this site alone.
You guys are great and have helped me and alot of other people fix the problems they think ( or do ) have. am I an xpert, no, would I like to be one YES, would I like to be able to answer some of the questions in these forums? YES, The other problem I see here is WHO is going to answer the newbe's questions on the new site or forum? If you are not willing to do it here then where?
Sorry about this but this type of talk just p*ss's me off, I had a teacher (My Grandfather) A man how finished college at the age of 16 with high honors, He told me a day that you do not learn anything is a day wasted, He also told me if someone needs your help you help them as it makes both you better at what you are trying to fix or learn.
Words to live by don't you think.
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He also told me if
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 11:40am
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He also told me if someone needs your help you help them as it makes both you better at what you are trying to fix or learn.
Sure, those are words to live by. I learn every time I answer a question.
So I have a question for you, helps me understand your perspective.
You say you are "broke". What are you trying to do with an IP phone system? If you are running a business that is cash strapped and using trix to save money I do no consider that "broke". I am surprised that more people do not ask how do I assemble a reliable phone system from used parts. eBay is a treasure trove of stuff if you know what you are looking for. I have set up many friends outside the sphere of my business to help them get started with a flexible communications system.
Or is the a hobby to you? That is OK also. I can see that it would be fun. There have been several posts on wacky applications that have no commercial value but are just fun. Things like that make you think hard also.
Scott
--
Scott
aka "Skyking"
The wiki seems to be very
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 12:05pm
The wiki seems to be very stable now and I have not had complaints about it lately. Link newbie questions to articles, create wiki links to common threads with answers. Then you can quickly reply to "stupid" questions with links. I dont think we can get around the influx of less experienced users, all we can do is point them in the right direction. I am open to any ideas on how to push people to read the wiki more as we increase the data there.
Just having fun
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 12:14pm
This is just a hobby, I am an old hardware hack, I started in the computer world making system boards, I just love to learn and play with new software and hardware that I think is going somewhere, I do this to help my friends that run companies (sssmall companies), and I do not charge them for my help, again goes back to my grandfather's words, Besides I am in a full time job that I love and that gives me all I need.
Thanks you asking.
What is DUMB ? Lack of
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 12:47pm
What is DUMB ? Lack of intelligence or lack of information ?
The idea of streamlining and refining all the information within these forums is definitely an excellent one, BUT HEY
If you as an experienced user are having a hard time to filter out the relevant information from the Trixbox forums, how do you expect a newbie to google out those tons of pages on the internet before he gets an answer to his query ?
Secondly, you cannot generalize issues because there can be multiple reasons causing the issue. Yes, we can put many IF and ELSE's out there on the WIKI to narrow down newbie issues.
Some of the posts that appear DUMB/STUPID actually serve as CASE STUDIES.
Most of the users (atleast the ones that I know) not only like Trixbox because of its cool features but also because of the fact that it has an active forum rich with information. You put in something to search and you find a whole list of case studies. You never know you might be helping someone out with those DUMB questions.
Just a small example of what
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 2:43pm
Just a small example of what elitism gets you.
There is another project that is not asterisk nor an asterisk fork that lacks documentation and has its own way of making the world go round. The only reasonable way to use said project is to rtfc (read the friendly code) I personally don't mind taking the time to learn a project fiddle around on my spare time with my kids college fund etc. The problem with said project it the developers are the only ones who know how to make anything work and you get your hand slapped for asking for a FM to read so you don't have to be a bother. This is one think that you can do if you wanna use newb spray. build documentation so you can say did you rtfm without getting an eye poked out because the docs arent there. Kerry has it and I am paraphrasing, Give a man fire he will be warm for an hour - set a man on fire and he will be warm the rest of his life. If the documentation is strong you point people to it . If all the handouts become simple direction to proper documentation people will start to go there. Of course this isnt full proof and some people aren't flammable but who does it hurt if you douse a little gas and spark a match.
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Of course this isnt
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 2:49pm
Its seems then that one part
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 3:06pm
Its seems then that one part of the solution is for those in the know... to help with more documentation for the wiki, especially with what some would call the kindergarten level info.
I know I have learned a lot from Kodak's writings.
And as rpotthoff suggested, maybe the wiki page should be more prominent as part of the home page.
How 2
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 4:01pm
A good "How to" section in the WiKi would be a good start
It would need to cover from 1.2.3 on up.
things like
How to set the gateway /DNS on your nic
How to get to the log file and post it here.
How to connect two boxes
How to search the forums
How to setup your email using webmin
How to setup a FIREWALL using webmin
We use to have some good stuff on FXO / FXS ports
Check out the Hamachi site...Paul and the folks have it so all I need to do is point to the WiKi for 90 % or more of all questions.
https://forums.hamachi.cc/viewforum.php?f=7
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How to get to the log
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 4:32pm
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How to get to the log file and post it here.
Done: Thanks to KodaK
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How to setup your email using webmin
Done: Thanks to KodaK and Kerry. Not with Webmin though
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How to set the gateway /DNS on your nic
I promised to do a networking how to. Including multiple NICS and VLAN best practices.
My fear is the way I do it may be too complex and confuse folks (kinda the way I do everything) however I am willing to make good on my promise and post a draft within the next 7 days.
Scott
--
Scott
aka "Skyking"
This may be a dumb question, but....
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 10:25pm
Which is the ethernet jack? The one the phone plugs into or the one the computer plugs into?
LOL Kidding...
You guys crack my ass up. I try my best to read before I ask stupid questions and I get a real kick out of some of the questions that get asked in here... (IE How do I connect my office to a TrixBox Thingy...) LOL Yeah, that can be answered in one little short post!
But I will tell you a funny story... I started playing around with trixbox. I had used Linux about 3 times before installing trixbox. I've been using it for about a year now. We have it at the office, at both owner's homes and have DUNDI, IPTables, OpenVPN, the whole 9 yards setup. I run it on VMWare whenever a new release comes out, just to play, and I wait up at night for the next greatest download. It's been soooooo much fun learning, and I've gotten soooo much information and help from these groups, I would hate to deny anyone that. No matter how smart I may ever become, or how much I may ever learn, sometimes, you just have a blond moment. So here is my funny one... When I called my voicemail I dialed the wrong * code. She would say, Mailbox and I would enter my mailbox number, then she would just sit their and wait. So I came to the blog one day and asked what she was waiting on.... When someone replied with "your password" I felt like the biggest idiot in the world... No matter what things we accomplish in life, sometimes you just have one of those days! LOL
Thanks guys for the help, the hard work on wiki's, and the contributions, but most of all, keeping me laughing at night when I can't sleep. I love reading some of these responses. It's proof that even geeks can have a wicked sense of humor!
yes they are funny
Thu, 04/24/2008 - 11:39pm
yes some of the questions are very very funny , and if you dont take it too seriously you could laugh them off.
It is clear from this post that most people agree
[1] we need to have a open forum for the development of the community
[2] we can not deny people access and flame people for asking silly questions
[3] the forum needs a repository of information to the 20? most frequently asked questions. the best place for this repository is in the wiki
[4] the senior members and the members with most knowledge will be the ones that create and update the information in the WIKI
[5] we need a pleasant and non-confrontational way of telling a newby to read the docs and then come back here if they are still stuck
How 2's
Fri, 04/25/2008 - 3:14am
Here is another one which should be in the WiKi under How to's......
Quote...Speaking of Hamachi, if you did not know already there is a package in the repo for Hamachi. Once you install the RPM, go to the command line and type setup-hamachi
I really hate to point folks to a LONG thread in the forum with who knows what getting put into it..(Shoot No telling what kind of crap I may have written ;~)...
If I could just point to the How to's in the WiKi I would piss off alot less folks...
"We" all know that the links in WiKi go to the docs..but if someone is not going to take the time to click on each link to find out if their issues is addressed it is not helping.
Some folks just need to have it served up on a plate.
I am with Scott, writting How 2's for folks is not my strong point (really I do not like people I just HAVE to speak to them as they pay the bill's)
Did someone mention Hamachi...
Fri, 04/25/2008 - 3:25am
wiki - has been doing well
Fri, 04/25/2008 - 9:04pm
wiki - has been doing well for a while - but still needs contributions, and as long as trixbox keeps changing, will always need contributions.
http://www.trixbox.org/forums/trixbox-forums/open-discussion/cont...
as far as id10t posts - the only thing we can do is reply with a quick reference link and tell them to use the resources already available (wiki/search) before posting further questions.
there are moderators (besides Kerry) and they are very objective/open-minded I think (by not being affiliated with Fonality), however having a moderator just running around deleting posts, is going to make the forum not very popular pretty fast. The most amount of moderation we can do is move topics to the correct forum where they will be:
a. get answered by people posting specific to said topic.
b. be seen in the future if someone is browsing for the same answer (slim, but happens).
in an effort to stem these questions, the community as a whole should contribute more to the wiki, and be more vocal on it as a reference, in a hope that someone gets referred there once, and sees there are a lot of answers there before posting another common question.
This doesnt necessarily need to be a fully written wiki guide, it could just be a link to an already answered question in a forum post - let the wiki be your sticky section.
there is still a lot of basic beginner stuff that is missing, but there are good references to sites like Sureteq, and trixbox without tears right there on the front page of the wiki.
Member Since:
2006-06-03