Huge trixbox pro misconception...
Submitted by compdoc on Sat, 08/25/2007 - 8:51am.
... that is was affordable!
I didnt see this before for some reason, but now I'm seeing that the cost to buy trixbox Pro outright, is $249 per user. Is that right?
I was about to recommend Pro to a customer with 25 users, which would be expanded in the future. Thats $6225 to start.
Screw that. What a disappointment...
Screw that!!
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 11:30am
On top of the outrageous pricing, then we have the fact that all configuration Must be done thru a Fonality server... Where big brother can see and control everything... That is crap!!!
This is NOT a Cisco CallManager, but it is priced like one..500 users = $124,000... and we don't even have the Gateways or phones yet!!!!! which will not work as well together as gateways designed and built by the same vendor...Nor will you have all the features available... CallManger has about 2500 features, give or take!
VOIP has some benefits, its
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 11:46am
VOIP has some benefits, its true. But I can buy a complete Avaya phone system with the following features for less than $5000:
32 digital station ports, that work on 1 pair of cat3
2 analog ports, that will support fax
1 T1 card for 24 digital trunks
25 phones with many programmable buttons
software with a nicer feature set, with no monthly fee or further licenses to buy
6 port voicemail
And the biggest advantage - it would be far more reliable than any computer based system.
I dont understand the pricing structure I guess. I'm assuming its for support. But after the initial setup, which might not need support at all, its not supposed to require any support. Phones systems are supposed to just work. So we'd be paying for nothing.
What I think trixbox Pro needs is one more choice: A low upfront license fee, with no support included. Say, $500 for EE and $2500 for Call Center. And any needed support paid for at your hourly rate.
That would make more sense.
500 seats? not. Also, resellers get up to 50% discount
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 11:49am
You are pricing at retail.
Also, 500 seats is not our space. 60% of the worlds businesses are < 200 seats.
The Asterisk market average seat size is < 15. Fonality has 2,500 paid sites and our average is 13.75, with our biggest 500. We probably have less than 20 > 200.
So think about your pricing for 10-40 seats, and then apply a healthy reseller discount. That should be more realistic than pricing it at FULL RETAIL at 500 seats.
Think about it this way
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 11:55am
Take a 30 seat deployment of EE. Then take a reseller discount, let's say 30%. So, that comes out to about $7 per month per seat, so therefore $210 per month.
Now, find an unlimited VoIP calling service and pair that up as well - you can get these for $20 or so per user these days. That is another $600 per month.
Now for $210 + 600 = $810 per month you can have a 15 seat with UNLIMITED voip dialing.
Compare that to Covad's hosted service which is $69 per seat per month to make $2070. Now with Covad you also get part of your T1 for bandwidth, so that is about $400, but the prices are still not even comparable.
Right now EE is $9.99 per seat RETAIL and $4.99 at full discount. We don't have *much* room to go cheaper than that and have a full business.
As for a per-server-unlimited-pricing-model. Without charging a pretty big sum for it (like $3,000 for EE) we can't make a business out of it. And if we did charge $3,000 for it, the small deployments of 2,3,10 seats would get a really bad deal.
>Today, you do have the
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 12:25pm
>Today, you do have the option to buy Pro support hourly if you wish!
You mean the free version of Pro? Unfortunately, it lacks the two things things all businesses are accustomed to, and need, in a phone system: paging and conference calls.
And yes, resellers get a discount, but they are then supposed to turn around and sell it to the customer at the retail rate, no? In the end, its costing somebody $6000 for just the software.
It might be that resellers will instead give the customer big discounts for Pro, so they'll get the job. I sell Windows XP at cost to get the sale.
You may be right, it might be worth it to somebody. The number of people buying it will decide that. Be interesting to see. I'm hoping to learn just how many companies out there have that much money to spend. ;)
I think everyone gives huge
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 12:41pm
I think everyone gives huge discounts, so the only thing we have to go on, is the published pricing...
The crap of using a Fonality server to configure MY server REALLY bugs the hell out of me.. Then we have the limited choice of ITSPs with that version... There are at least 100 ITSPs out there at any given point in time... I want choices,, I have 4 currently and like it that way...
I think most users would be willing to pay the support rates , IF the support was competent and efficient.. In addition, they , more than likely, would be willing to pay something for the software , if it included G.729 & G.722 codecs.. Maybe in the $200-500 range.. Most people do not expect something for nothing...
Unlimited VoIP calling is
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 12:50pm
Unlimited VoIP calling is nice, but companies needing that narrows your market considerably, I would think. And I'm assuming you mean unlimited long distance dialing?
I service businesses in the Denver area, and most (98%) of my customers dont use their phones that way. Youre catering mainly to call centers, like tech support, collections, etc.
>The crap of using a
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 12:59pm
>The crap of using a Fonality server to configure MY server REALLY bugs the hell out of me..
I can see that, lol. I've been testing Pro a lot in the last week. Thieir servers seem up all the time now, and it works well. Although I did find that Paypal's virtual credit card software can make their interface crash.
Theres really nothing but maybe your users' email addresses, that are at risk. I dont have a problem with Fonality seeing things like that, or even my dial plan.
And there are benefits to it in terms of support. Like that its a backup of your system.
Crap...
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 1:22pm
Everyone has to have a pet peeve,,,,The big brother thingy is mine...Nanny govts, Nanny vendors, Nanny anything...Don't need it, don't want it... Correct, Call center is my current usage, hopefully expanding into other markets in foreign countries where the traditional LD changes are outrageous.. Small call centers placed aound can do well.. Just need to be selective on placement and DSL providers, can't go cheap,,,:)
Need A Better Solution
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 7:49pm
In my opinion, if TBPro does not provide the option to have your own standalone system without having your stuff on fonality's servers it will only see perhaps half and half sale and more likely more people will be less likely to go that route. We are all techies here, backing up any of our servers config and data is part of what we do, we don't need our own info or our clients info duplicated unto fonality's servers at all when we already have our backups. Not to talk of trying to garner monthly recurring fees, I just don't see any of this idea working...the only monthly fee necessary is to the ITSP for calls made. This issue, coupled with the fact that TBPro versions do not have certain features and cost a high amount really will not make the idea of TBPro one that will stand the test of time.
If fonality wants to remove HUDLite from all TB versions and sell it as a seperate add-on, that will be more feasible, so that whoever needs it can choose to buy it as opposed to being coerced or otherwise. There are other ways to derive revenue...they just need to find a better option. One of which is to come out with a sleek 1U rackmount PBX with TB embedded, with all necessary interfaces, varying capacities of HDD, and upgradeable memory (not the current huge TB appliance that looks more like a gaming PC than a business class system), so that as we look to work with clients we only need to by these systems and configure (without fonality backend backup) with phones. Then they can also have other accesories such as PBX NAS boxes to backup the TB data into with the same technology currently used to remotely backup customer info unto fonality's servers. This I think is a feasible and better-planned way to generate recurring revenue and repeat sales via dedicated reseller and client base. Then they can add support to it, which is sure to bring revenue once a viable, well rounded product is served up...and I mean with customer-desired features as well (including SLA/BLF).
Well, the whole deal about
Sat, 08/25/2007 - 8:28pm
Well, the whole deal about BYOH (bring your own hardware) is that you can proveide a more powerful computer for a lot less. Personally, I like the easy to get, off the shelf atx motherboards, and power supplies, etc.
Just try finding parts for a 1U rackmount.
In any case, I think lowering the price to the point that anyone can afford it is the way to go. Units sales are really what its all about. Once youve created it, you want to sell as many copies as you can.
Y r we still on this kick??
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 2:10am
OK OK OK
Pro is not for some folks, we get that.
One more time NO ONE is forcing it on you (If someone is FORCING U blink twice, we will send in the clean team)
Yes many things about it are funky, so what??? Do not load it.
I have yet to find any "off the shelf" Phone system that did not have a service contract or a Pay per call support plan.
And as the target market for PRO is for the SoHo crowd 2 ~ 20 phones) most which do not have a "linux person" on staff to manage a phone system.
If anyone of a dozen company's without a support contact calls for support on a Nortel / Panasonic box the bill is any where UP from 150.00 min charge just to roll to the location.
We laugh about the companies which do not pay the small service contract fees as just two calls a year equals the cost of a service contact which gives them 24 / 7 access to tech support via phone / email / IM and gives them a 4 hour response time.
A quick run thu Time and Billing shows that we get about 3.5 service calls per BOX on avg
so we get 225.00 more per customer on avg per year when they do not purchase a service contract.
It is call TOC or total cost of ownership, Until you look at TCO of TB CE or any other system against a TCO of a PRO you need to lay out each system on paper.
The single most missed thing on a take off is the time factor ...
Time equals Money
And Yes for most of you out there PRO will be on the losing side of the spread sheet, so what?
No one said you had to use it.
In sitting down and figuring out TOC on projects; you may also find that your whole Business model needs to be fine tuned as well.
It is about choice, just be sure you have all the facts in hand before you make yours.
Understand this as a IT Consultant I do not sell hardware, I sell solutions.
Sometimes the solutions means more money for me and my team, sometimes it means I send the customer to someone who is better suited to do the job.
We do not always sell the customer what they WANT, but we always offer them what they NEED.
Our job is to know the difference.
Viable Product = Revenue
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 6:23am
I guess we all have our points but as a great admirer of the TB innovation and hardwork put together by the TB eam. As a business owner I also would like TB to be there for the long run i.e. as mentioned on the webinar, they obviously need to also have some revenue to cover TCO plus profits to keep TB going. So, as I mentioned in my last post, it would be better if they took another route (perhaos as I suggested) as TB Pro is not cutting it for the majority. The better the product they deliver, the better off everyone is i.e. integrators/techies are confident to deploy it for clients, customers are happy with the product and all round robust features, the TB team can make the revenue to continue operations, and also deliver good support for a viable product alpng with selling HUDLite server and client on the side for those who need to integrate its feature into TBCE. This may require focusing on TB CE only (being everyone's preferred) to deliver a well-rounded product with features we as techies and clients "NEED".
Personally, I am looking into the option of coming up with a prototype of a 1U business class rackmount PBX box with all necessary interfaces (from dual gigabit NICs to FXO/FXS ports, USB, HDD, etc) so if anyone knows of where I can look please let me know (perhaps somewhere in China). The main things we get to modify on hardware such as Dell & HP servers are the CPU, memory, and HDD capacity...these should all still be possible on the system I envision.
2 MoBo Rack Mount Half Depth
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 6:25am
We working on a 2 Trixbox in one Rack Mount that is Half Depth appliance.
Still working on the High Availability part to use this as a redundant Trixbox.
Both under Trixbox CE, and calling this the TRIXstream PBX.
http://tech-r-us.tzo.com:8001/Sales/trixbox/1u_Rack/case_2.5.jpg
http://tech-r-us.tzo.com:8001/Sales/trixbox/1u_Rack/dimension_2.5...
http://tech-r-us.tzo.com:8001/Sales/trixbox/1u_Rack/motherboard_2...
walden
www.tech-r-us.com
here's the MOBO
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 7:06am
Celeron M, 1GHz, 1GB Ram, 20GB HDD, 2x10/100 RealtekNIC, 3 USB
VIA C7, 1GHz, 1GB RAM, 20GB HDD, 1x10/100 Realtek NIC, 3 USB
Both with Power Adapter built-in the 1U case.
We have both installed and doing actual Trixbox CE 2.2 running for about 2 weeks now.
The Celeron M is used by a virtual service center based in Asia, with 4 agents. 2-3 concurrent calls without issues on quality. The server is hosted in our Los Angeles facilities.
The VIA C7 is used by office of 4 active extensions. No problems so far for about 10 days.
Hope to get this into a real "Viable Product = Revenue". hehe!
walden
Techieg,
You are making
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 8:59am
Techieg,
You are making comments as if you speak for the whole of the community when the number of sales and activations we have seen since launch prove that to be incorrect. Our sales and activations are beyond what our expectations were. This comes as no real surprise to me because I was an IT consultant for many years and for the SMB (5-50) user base that I sold to I can't begin to tell you how many spent TEN TIMES what a Pro system would have cost on their systems. In comparison to a 3Com NBX system, which was billed as a highly affordable system, a 50 seat install ran $50,000, for each phone they added it ran about $350 for the phone, and $150 for a new license. Softphones? Yeah right, $150 per softphone license. Remote phones? No problem $150 per remote license. VoIP providers, no problem, you only needed the $5000 SIP add-on. Ok, nice but....oh wait, yeah the support contract was $5,000 per year. But wait, there's more....on top of this, they got billed $150/hour for the install which took 2 people 3 days. The could have put in a Pro CCE (only needed EE) for a fraction of that price.
I can give you many many more examples just like this from my own real experience where Pro would have saved tons of money over what they ended up purchasing or at least were quoted before I went with trixbox.
The fact is, Pro is not cutting it for you, and certainly for a few others, we get that. How do you move from a business model where your software is free to one where the software costs a signifigant amount in comparison....the answer is, you might not. Pro removes much of the hassle of maintaining and supporting a phone system, if this isnt a pain point, it not for you. Pro inherently backs up your config files, if this isnt an issue, then Pro might not be for you. Pro allows you to manage you systems remotely, brand them to you own design, gives users their own portals, has real time and historic graphs for troubleshooting, offers notifications and alerts, again, if you don't need these features, then Pro might not be for you. On the other hand, many many people do want and/or need these features without wanting to take the time to do it all themselves and then be on the hook for it if something goes wrong, for those people, Pro is for them.
We are not out to change your mind, we do not sit here and bash CE to get people to stop using it, but the numbers to speak for themselves. People asked us for this product, we delivered it, and they are buying it. We are happy with the pricing, the sales tell us people are happy with the pricing, but when compared to $0, well, sorry, we aren't going to give it away for next to nothing. We have spent 3.5 years developing the pricing model with the PBXtra side of the house and it works, resellers make money, they have less problems, they have good features, and it works.
Its about choice, if you choose to stick with CE because that is the business model that works for you, that's great. We are continuing development on CE, we have a support system for CE, and it costs you nothing.
Majority
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 9:13am
If at anytime I implied everyone, then I may be wrong, but I at least mean the MAJORITY as I understand not all of us will be on the same page (it is not a good idea to argue for ALL). And I don't think I have bashed TBPro in any way compared to what I have read here. You need to read what the users and implementers are saying, its written all over this and other threads...some of the concepts are not palatable. I have said my 2cents and leave the rest for others, perhaps some other post may arouse more of my 2cents.
I really dont think that the
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 9:28am
I really dont think that the very vocal 5 or 6 people represent the MAJORITY of the installers and resellers. In any given community, people who dislike something or are upset are the ones to speak up the most, people that are happy typically say nothing. So while I can appreciate where you are coming from and what you, and the people that feel the same way as you do think. The actualy numbers of downloads and installs would prove you wrong as for as being the voice of the majority.
Do not for one second think that this means I am discounting your opinion in any way. For every person who doesn't like something, there are always more that won't speak up. Every single point that has been made from price, to number of voip providers, to features, etc, has been logged and everytime somebody else brings it up, we add that to the ticket. This way we can easily judge by the community reaction what they really want out of trixbox, both Pro and CE.
We are a small company run by humans and humans do make mistakes and we know that we have not created the perfect product. Based soley on the feedback of people like yourself and others, we will continue to improve and fine tune the product. No matter what we do you may never be satisfied and we acknowledge that.
If some of the concepts aren't palatable, then Pro is not for you. We are not going to make it a customer premise solution, It was not designed for that, we could not upgrade features instantly, we could not support it easily, and it would take a long time to rewrite all the backend. If the majority of people felt the same way, nobody would be installing it and buying it and we would know that we screwed up.
Since we are talking cost of
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 10:14am
Since we are talking cost of other solutions. I have a potential client that 'was' looking at a hosted and fully supported enterprise business solution. 35 extensions and edge router etc. for $13000up front+ $2600 a month! That includes the dedicated data T1 link for $250/mth but still.
It's a very nice polished commercial solution that is well proven but so is TB Pro more or less and with TB Pro they can have proper TDM connections. Needless to say the TB Pro solution looks like a bargain to them and it was pretty easy to talk them out of going with the other hosted solution.
I started this thread
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 10:09am
I started this thread because of sticker shock. At first I thought, finally here is a reasonably priced product. Somehow, I never saw the 'per user' attached to the lifetime license fee. Then I saw it.
For me, being a phone and computer service tech for 25 years, watching the VoIP market evolve over the years has been especially interesting. It’s just that I feel pricing for commercial VoIP products are still based on perceived value, rather than actual value.
Even at the reseller discount, this product is too pricey for average businesses. Someday soon, I'll be able to purchase software and build a system for a price that can compete with the old style, digital phone systems that businesses have relied on for years. And still do.
High costs are why people are turning away from Windows Server, and its expensive CALs. It’s what has driven the *nix market to what it is, in my opinion. And it’s not that I’m looking for free stuff.
Once a year or so, I download and play with VoIP distros to see how the industry is developing. I’m going to wait a while longer before implementing one, though.
By the way, the argument that ‘no one is forcing you to buy it’ is just kinda lame – no need to state the obvious. I was hoping to use this product, and then was disappointed to find I couldn’t.
That someday is today...
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 10:25am
Quote: Even at the reseller discount, this product is too pricey for average businesses. Someday soon, I'll be able to purchase software and build a system for a price that can compete with the old style, digital phone systems that businesses have relied on for years. And still do.
Trixbox CE is that product for us right now - We are a Samsung dealer, and when we sat down to price out our Trixbox offering, we found that we could sell a Trixbox with a markup that had us making more money than we were on the Samsung, and yet prices exactly with the Samsung Digital - And this is with Dell servers, Sangoma interfaces, and Polycom phones.
I wish that Fonality would rethink their licensing structure for Pro also, but perhaps it is too early in the process for them to WANT to change - or, it is meeting their requirements for revenue and they see no reason to change - either way, CE works REALLY WELL and it's free for the taking - no reason to sit on the sidelines anymore.
Greg
Someone Please Explain
Sun, 08/26/2007 - 10:30am
Wait, I don't get it, is it that if I need to use TB Pro with 10 users, I have to purchase 10 HUDLite user licenses @ $249 - $499 each and I have to buy for all 10 users? What if only the Admin staff needs the HUDLite feature, do I still have to buy it for all 10 users?
Someone, or better yet, Kerry please explain.
Being a end-user this is an
Tue, 08/28/2007 - 11:55am
Being a end-user this is an interesting thread to follow.. moving my department (5 users) out of our current building and into a seperate building. I have real quotes in hand:
Partner ACS with 6 phones and voicemail installed $5200 (yes a Partner)
that's $1040 per employee and then add $250/month for a support contract
add another $3500 to go with an Avaya IP Office and that's $1740 per employee
trixBox Pro install(self) with Polycom 550's
$249/user plus $240ea for phones (x6) that's $537/user plus $800/year for support
First year savings $4715 (already had a server) so subtract $1400 for a Dell SC model and I am still saving over $3k in the first year. As a customer, I think the costs (even paying retail) is very competitve. We deployed Nortel BCM's at 3 offices for 50 employees and that project cost over $60k (and 3 years later is still a mess). A Toshiba with 15 phones was $21k
So even paying "retail" for trixBox licenses, I am still saving money and gaining flexibity. I looked at the CE version, but knowing my guys and myself, we would waste more time jacking with it and playing with features than working. All I want isit backed up, easy config, and support if needed.
I have yet to have a quality install (Nortel/Avaya) after doing 6 different offices with 4 different VARs.
Now my issue is finding a PSTN gateway provder in my area (Kansas City), not big enough for a PRI.. not fun
Look like another Redhat
Wed, 08/29/2007 - 5:40pm
Look like another Redhat story , OpenSource cost so much money these days that I prefer to use closed product that work correctly.
If you're a SMB that need less than 16 phones look at Cisco SMB solutions you will be impress by the product you will get for the price and this with real SLA and BLF function.
Cisco No No
Wed, 08/29/2007 - 6:50pm
Don't even go the Cisco route. You think Avaya, Nortel, etc are expensive. Cisco will have you paying through your nose, the license per phone that connects to their CCM server alone is about $200 each and that is seperate from buying the phone hardware itself which cost upward of $300 each, then add the hassle of getting firmware since they make it unnecessarily hard to get.
KerryG, That's the problem
Wed, 08/29/2007 - 7:56pm
The problem with companies that call themselves making improvements on open source is that they go by "so called numbers". When is actuality these numbers are forecasts not facts. And as for the statement that has been made by Chris Lyman, we have this installed..., over and over again that is a load of crap. The number of customers that Fonality has swindled into to buying PBXtra and TBP are ridiculous. Those same companies are locked into your product now and are just waiting for the right opportunity to leave your sorry @$$. As for paying for support, I would rather rebuild than to call that mismanaged team you call a help desk. I agree with the whole big brother thing but what can you expect when certain companies put there greedy little mitts on an otherwise perfect product.
Thought I throw my
Thu, 08/30/2007 - 5:35pm
Thought I throw my suggestions out there.
I think the PRO product looks great, but sadly I agree the paid version is too much. The free version is useless to many as it doesn't have paging. I really don't mind paying for my phone switch, but there is no way I could sell this to my finance department. I have about 40 clients with 55 phones and I'm already paying heavily for the PRI.
I think a flat fee version with very STANDARD features (meaning PAGING like all other systems) with pay-as-you-go tech support would fit perfectly.
I also think most people are VERY concerned about the hybrid hosting model. I would be very upset if I paid a monthly fee only to be held at ransom if faced with higher service charges. I would be even more upset if I paid the "life-time" fee only to have the service stagnate or die if the company changes directions. These are all very real possibilities. Heck, the whole reason I'm going VOIP is because I was being held ransom by Intertel and their propritary upgrade paths.
Sadly, I think it will remain Trixbox CE for me. Though if it were cheaper (and flat fee) I would be all over it.
I have argued this point myself.
Thu, 08/30/2007 - 7:42pm
However, tfontane why not be nice about it. ALAMP plus FreePBX is going to be with us for a while. So, I don't see a reason to be bitter. Pro is going to work for some shops whom sell more than they can support. trixboxCE will seemingly continue on forward and which we are still free to use.
There are all sorts of alternatives if you like. Cisco is watching and learning btw... I was just reading about a >10 user SMB system that was like 3500US with phones and two ATA's and an 8port switch(I think.)
At any rate, lots of choices and no call for rudeness here.
tfontane
Fri, 08/31/2007 - 7:28am
tfontane
Quote:
The problem with companies that call themselves making improvements on open source is that they go by "so called numbers". When is actuality these numbers are forecasts not facts. And as for the statement that has been made by Chris Lyman, we have this installed..., over and over again that is a load of crap. The number of customers that Fonality has swindled into to buying PBXtra and TBP are ridiculous.
You don't believe we have over 2500 installed systems? I'm not sure what issue you have with that, if we didn't, we wouldn't be in business. We have never posted our sales forcasts, only the facts of our business.
Quote:
Those same companies are locked into your product now and are just waiting for the right opportunity to leave your sorry @$$.
While we appreciate usefull commentary and feedback, I fail to understand what point you are trying to make here. If a customer wants to leave, they don't pay us, ask for a refund, if it within their evaluation time there is no penalty. Surprisingly, very few customers have issues except ones that insist on using VoIP only solutions or wont pay extra for echo cancelation cards. Those are not problems with our systems.
Correction: With trixbox Pro SE you have an unlimited amount of time to review the product. EE and CCE have no evaluation time.
Quote:
As for paying for support, I would rather rebuild than to call that mismanaged team you call a help desk.
Again, not sure what your issue is here, I rarely ever see messages that someone was unhappy with support unless it was one of those situations I discribed above. Again, useful feedback is far more helpful to us than childish insults.
Quote:
I agree with the whole big brother thing but what can you expect when certain companies put there greedy little mitts on an otherwise perfect product.
If you think Asterisk or trixbox are perfect products than you obviously do not have many systems installed. Asterisk as the engine is quite an unstable product especially under heavy load, queues, and conferencing. trixbox, being based on FreePBX is buggy as well with simple things like paging that hasn't worked right in ages. I don't understand how trying to make a business and pay people a salary to do their job is considered to be putting greedy little mitts on a product.
For someone who has been a member here for 42 weeks and this was your first post which was only an attempt to sling insults instead of providing any meaningful feedback is a little surprising. Nobody is shoving Pro down your throat, if nobody likes it, if the price is too high, if it doesn't have the features people need, it simply wont sell and then you can come back and taunt us with "I told you so"'. If you have useful commentary and feedback to help us improve the product or our support, please don't hesitate to speak up.
My problem is, that my
Fri, 08/31/2007 - 8:21am
My problem is, that my customer's ISP / T1 provider offers a hosted solution for just the cost of the phones: $4100 for 24 Linksys Sipura 941 sets, and 1 Cisco 7960G set. I cant compete with that.
The ISP is saying there would be no increase in monthly service, but eventually the customer will have to get another T1 because of the greatly increased traffic. The ISP isnt mentioning that part.
At the moment, the customer's T1 supports 12 voice lines that connect to a Panasonic PBX, and the unused bandwidth is used for web access.
Its my understanding that voice channels over a T1 run at 64k per sec each, while VoIP phones would run at 80k per sec each. With a hosted solution, since even intercom calls are going to travel the T1 to the host, the amount of traffic is going to skyrocket.
A hosted PBX in our opinion
Fri, 08/31/2007 - 8:33am
A hosted PBX in our opinion is a really bad idea. If your internet accerss goes down, you completely lose the ability to make or receive phone calls. With the hybrid hosted solution, you can be using regular phone circuits and if your internet goes down, you phone system is still up. So while the hosted PBX may be cheaper, it certainly isn't a good choice for many businesses. This is why we are not in the hosted PBX business. You have to compete on basis of the value proposition and not always the price, do you want your phones to go down? Do you want higher internet access fees? Do you want to be eating up 160k of bandwidth just for an extension to extension call?
A few other comments
Fri, 08/31/2007 - 9:46am
Not going to get too carried away here but we will have a lot of trouble justify the monthly costs for tribox pro to our clients for features they will most likely not require. I would sooner have seen the upfront costs be the upfront costs and the maintenance and upgrade costs be like most other software in a yearly software maintenance charge. I would like to see the base version have a few more features and maybe some limitations say 20 users and all for say $1000.00 to $2000.00. You can still charge some ongoing upgrade and monitoring fees as well.
The lifetime fee has no interest to me as I have little or no faith in any business properly allotting part of the lifetime fee to future maintenance and upgrade work. What is lifetime? Mine, yours, your company, the computer it is installed on, or the best on yet is till we build a much better product and rename and phase out support on the other product. Most of the phone systems getting upgraded today are 10 to 25 years old that is most likely someones lifetime
On the other side of the coin I am not a fan of freeware as there is no such thing as free in the business world. Our business is built on providing services for a fee. I don't want a client that things he can get stuff for free as he will most likely be trying to chisel me all the time
Thanks Parker Fjeldberg
But a hosted config is OK?
Sat, 09/01/2007 - 9:48am
I'm not sure, but its not trixbox that host your config files when you buy trixbox pro?, I prefer 1000 times having a hosted phone system from my ISP than trixbox , they give me T1 and or phones lines so if they go down I will lost connectivity anyway .
Like you said , Asterisk have great idea but they didn't have the capacity to deliver stable code base so why we are wasting our time with it when alot of other VoIP GPL project are simply better ? OpenSer,Yate,SipX,Callweaver every piece of that software perform better than Asterisk , AOL and Amazon chosed SipX !! , every day people dumping Asterisk for Callweaver because of stability problem!. The day that Callweaver will got his new sofia-sip Asterisk will have a serious problem ( even for carrier ) , I'm not sure if QUALITY is a word that Digium know about , its look like they have the "china" approach for coding.
SipX looks nice, but doesnt
Mon, 09/03/2007 - 7:00pm
SipX looks nice, but doesnt support PSTN cards like digium or sangoma. They suggest you use an asterisk server as a pstn server.
Doesnt look any of the others (Yate, Callweaver, or OpenSer) comes as a bootable iso, so you have to install some form of *nix and build it all from scratch. Do-able, but time consuming..
One of em runs in Windows, but who wants to run it in Windows?
Asterisk & trixbox arent perfect, but there really isnt any perfect solution for this segment of VoIP. Only very expensive commercial systems are perfect.
Lots of ppl support and use Asterisk, which has a certain value.
Be nice if trixbox pro did well, which in turn allowed increased support for trixbox CE.
Anyway, a decent, easy to use, open source solution is almost here - just need to be a bit more patient..
Un-Confuse Users.
Mon, 09/03/2007 - 8:05pm
@ kerryg "With the hybrid hosted solution, you can be using regular phone circuits and if your internet goes down, you phone system is still up."
Really, the co-called hybrid solution you mentioned is not required to enjoy uptime as described. Premise-based with phone circuits fully provide the uptime you described without the need for internet availability...it has nothing to do with having data stored at your data centers dubbed "hybrid". Let us be clear about that and not confuse those who don't know that there is really no benefit to hosting TB data on Fonality severs when data backups can/have always been done locally in IT other than recurring revenue derived by Fonality...that by itself contributes to bandwidth consumption especially on the WAN as opposed to backing up locally.
"Let us be clear about that
Tue, 09/04/2007 - 4:57am
"Let us be clear about that and not confuse those who don't know that there is really no benefit to hosting TB data on Fonality severs when data backups can/have always been done locally in IT other than recurring revenue derived by Fonality...that by itself contributes to bandwidth consumption especially on the WAN as opposed to backing up locally."
Really? You need to inform Iron Mountain (and all the other companies) that sell offsite backup of data (huge market growth) that it has no value. I also do not know too many companies with 25 or fewer employees with an IT department (trixbox's target market segment), especially ones that know Linux. They typically outsource IT and rely on a 3rd party to perform these functions.. kinda like fonality backing up the server config oddly enough. It's one thing less thing for SMB's to worry about, at a fee I am willing to pay. This is only an issue if you are an outsource company that wants to charge them to back it up, or an IT person that needs some job security.
Our Nortel and Avaya VARs, as part of their service, store a copy of our configs. We are paying for that service (buried in their montly fee). Free is great, but not so great when you can't pick up a phone and get support or have someone pop-in and take a look. I don't want to be a trixbox expert, I don't want to spend $2k on a Linux Commvault agent so I can back it up locally, I don't want to manage yet another item (have enough already). This hits a price point I am willing to pay to let someone else deal with it.
I just don't think you are talking about the typical small business.
techieg,
I understand you
Tue, 09/04/2007 - 10:49am
techieg,
I understand you don't like Pro, all of us here understand that. But to say off-site backups have no value is very short sighted. Yes, you can do off-site backups yourself on CE. That's great for someone that knows how to set it up, manage it, and then knows how to do a restore. For the people that don't know how, or don't want to deal with it, Pro makes it MUCH easier as that process in inherent in the system. Why you continually bash Pro when it is obvious it is not the product for YOU, I fail to understand. As you can see from the other responses, it does have a place in the market, other people do like it, and the price is acceptable to some people.
We offer two products, CE and Pro. They both have their place, use whatever suites you the best. I don't see the guys using Pro bashing CE. So why are you still bashing Pro. You dont like it, you dont like our hybrid-hosted model, you don't like that we need to make money, great, help us make CE better by offering good feedback and it will continue to be your software of choice.
Yeah help us make CE better
Tue, 09/04/2007 - 6:43pm
Yeah help us make CE better and let us giving code back to digium and after we will sell your product in a pro version and you will never touch a penny .
Compdoc : its not because you use external gateway that the product is bad , Sipx have a LIVECD and complete RPM packages for Fedo ,CentOS 4/5 , they also have a complete plug and play system for phones and audiocode gateway , I'm sure that everyone know that digium hardware sucks about echo and the only viable way is sangoma , the only reason why digium use built-in card is because they want to sell you their hardware that not even know how to use shared IRQ correctly , anyone that install some telco product will tell you that external gateway are better because if you've got some storm and the power go trough your equipment you will prefer to change only the gateway than the whole PC and if you have customer that want to upgrade from 4 to 8 lines or from 1 T1 to 2 T1 I'm not sure if they will love the fact that you need to completely shutdown their system to install new line's .
Unintentional Bashing...
Tue, 09/04/2007 - 10:11pm
I do not intend to bash Pro in anyway, perhaps I am being misunderstood. Its not a matter of "not liking Pro" but the business model just is not well thought out. I am all for deriving revenue as a business owner myself. But the model is just not what it should be in my opinion...a lot is suffering with distributed focus on several versions of the same product under supervision of the same set of people (thinning out human resources). This takes away from the edge TB has to compete out there. And the mandatory features you put on Pro is another issue, its like Microsoft saying we "must mandatorily" backup all server/client settings to their sever at a monthly fee...how would you feel? (I need you to answer this question)...Even if its free, I still will not do it for a ton of reasons that has nothing to do with Microsoft as an OS (being the most popular OS anyway with the best business model so far...actual market/user base and financial figures prove that). Such offerings should be optional.
Also the use of the word "Hybrid" is deceiving a lot of people. "Hybrid", meaning you have both Hosted VoIP and Customer Premise Equipment (CPE) or Premise-Based VoIP. This must mean that if clients loose connection to the circuit provider, ITSP, etc (on the premise-based side) then hosted VoIP will kick in through your network so their phones (automatically or not) connect to your servers and they can continue to make calls like nothing ever happened? Kerry please clarify. Keep in mind that if that is not the case then Fonality/TB Pro is nothing close to "Hybrid", therefore such words should be eradicated from use here or with the current business model in general before other publications point that out too. Even M5Networks, Aptela, Speakeasy, Covad, Avaya, Packet8 amongst other companies that run on premium Cisco equipment from ground up will not mention "hybrid" as a VoIP service offering. Hybrid VoIP as known by the industry is VoIP system that incorporates both PSTN/circuits as well as SIP/packet switched networks in the same system such as Allworx 6x and several others....NOTHING ELSE CONSTITUTES "HYBRID" VoIP and has nothing to do with remote config backup AT ALL.
What I would do is focus on and perfect the current TB CE features, then build add-ons around that one well-focused product that you might say will upgrade it to "Pro SE or Pro CCE" due to this (pre-packaged) purchased add-ons not present in TB CE. This is simply killing more than one bird with one stone...the TB team is focused on all multiple version in a smart-er way by focusing on one stable product with add-ons; just by the delivery of add-ons that promote TB CE to Pro SE or Pro CCE. This does not stop Fonality from selling on TB Pro SE and CCE" as their only commercial offerings to their cliants. This also does not stop anyone else from even selling "TB Pro SE" or "TB Pro CCE" as products since they know all they have to do is purchase and install the necessary add-ons to attain either desired version.
I, as well as everyone else here want to see TB go places that is why we are all here getting involved in as little as the forum discussions, beta testing, coding, etc...,if I knew much about coding I would have taken a lot into my own hands because I love robust features and well streamlined products. I would like corporate boardrooms and technology staff all over to convene in order to make a critical decision as to; Going with Cisco or TB as a VoIP solution? ...but the current model and way things are being generally run is not looking on that direction. If you closely follow(ed) technology publications and articles, any mention they had of Fonality was downplayed by the same thing; Under Fonality service, one must purchase IP phones from Fonality only and configuration thereof is done only by Fonality (not even the end user), also that they are able to access the server info, settings, backup, etc...I have been reading this way before Fonality got in bed with TB...now the same thing is brought into TB...not good. There are tons of other innovative ways to derive revenue sirs. There is no doubt that the TB team is doing a great deal of work, Iwould just like to se it better directed.
Hybrid Hosted
The web
Tue, 09/04/2007 - 10:26pm
Hybrid Hosted
The web interface for managing the configurations is hosted on Fonality's servers. The reports and alerting are also handled by Fonality's servers.
The telephony interfaces and endpoints connect to equipment at the customer premise.
There is no VoIP component going through Fonality's servers.
No "Hybrid" Offering.
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 6:58am
So Kerry, your response therefore confirms that there is no "hybrid" VoIP in use with TB Pro offering. So please let us stop misusing and misleading people with such terms as "hybrid" when it is not.
And for the sake of it, why have the interface and reporting feature for managing a local system on a remote server somewhere else such that in the event of an internet outage (that has no business with up and running PSTN circuits connected to the local TB) one cannot make use of these features the system?....duh. Not a viable offering in my opinion, even a caveman wouldn't think up such a (business) model.
Compdoc...
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 10:02am
You said, and I quote (cuz i know how to copy and paste, lol) "Once a year or so, I download and play with VoIP distros to see how the industry is developing. I’m going to wait a while longer before implementing one, though.
Do you currently have any voip closed or open systems implemented?
I find the best way to sell a product, or a solution is to implement it and show a user how it works in my business environment... and if they are open to it, in theirs.
Some users are just excited that they can get a voicemail sent to them in their email, and they don't have to handle the phone as much.
I don't think a trixbox is right for every customer, nor do I think it is necessarily right for all "consultants."
I wouldn't purchase the support, simply b/c of my level of experience with phone systems in general, whether they are Key Systems, or voip pbx's or just voip over a LAN, so perhaps, I am looking at this through colored lenses.
But I think that if you want to build a business implementing and utilizing an asterisk based phone system, you can. You just have to decide how you want to spend your time, and what is ultimately going to put food on the table.
Overall, the phone rings, it gets answered and businesses are running on it... could it be improved in some areas, absolutely. Are there bugs, for sure. But ultimately it just depends on what you do best, and how you want to spend your time.
Ok, I've been quite on the
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 10:42am
Ok, I've been quite on the TB Pro issue. Frankly, I believe the problem here is calling PRO, TRIXBOX - For me it brings to mind a paid version of A@H or a non-free version of Trixbox. I suppose many people will take issue with non-free among other things found lately on the forum. I cannot understand what you guys were thinking. What did you expect? Why not call it what it is 'PBXtra slime green version' and move it back to PBXtra site and forums? Then maybe all these threads will die a natural death?
The ONLY reason I could see for using the TRIXBOX name was to tap into the trixbox users and convert them to PRO. Great idea if you are trying to confuse and alienate your users. Also, I would expect the conversion from CE to PRO was a small percentage. Quickly scanning the forum, I see few post saying I converted and love it. And I'd guess 99% of those that converted, were PBXtra users already. We don't see these users posting here because they don't need support. And I would venture to guess that 99% of those that use CE are either small businesses, home users or experimenters. Not a great base to tap into. I believe the most negative noise lately has been from the 1% that resale CE to the SMB's.
Kerry (and everyone else involved) have said "if it's not for you, then don't use it" - agreed. Your right, it's not for me and the reason I've tried to ignore the issues. But frankly, when I jump on the forum, what do I see... another 30 posts about PRO. So you see even if I wanted to ignore PRO, it's impossible! Try putting up a 'poll' asking you CE base what type of user are you? If people answer honestly, I think the results would prove me out.
The other issue I have is that 'you guys' released a 'hardened' version of TRIXBOX at about the same time you released the broken beta version and nobody there seems to care. Yeah, I know, it's not TRIXBOX, but PBXtra and it beta CE, what did I expect?... But the fixes are spread all over the forum instead in a sticky post for beta fixes. So, it's been up to the installer to not only find the problem, but search for the solution. Geez, how hard would it be to have a script to fix the known problems? We had talkingky scripts, but now I see even he won't be providing fixes now due to "creative differences"... sad.
How about another 'poll' - "are you thinking of abandoning trixbox due to fonality's involvement or influence?"
There, I fell better now
Bart
gohard
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 11:10am
>Do you currently have any voip closed or open systems implemented?
No. Thats been the problem all along. I've been in the phone industry for a long time. Even worked for AT&T and Pacific Bell. I've installed and serviced office systems for years. They have a rich set of features, and in terms of voice quality, they are the standard by which all VoIP systems are judged.
Just setting up a demo VoIP distro in the office with Asterisknow can be tough. Try setting up a Sangoma A200d card for that distro, and you'll know what I mean. The time you need to spend researching solutions is daunting.
And voice quality is sacrificed. Though it can be lived with.
I know a lot of systems based on opensource are being sold - see a lot of ppl saying they are. I hope to. Just a matter of finding the right level of quality.
lol - I have bought almost every type of ip phone of the market just to tested for everything from sound quality, to look & feel.
Have to say, the Aastra 9133i I just got, seems one of the worst - the sideband volume is way too high. You can hear your own voice too well in the conversation. Shame too - I like all the buttons...
Compdoc,
Try the following
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 1:38pm
Compdoc,
Try the following settings in the aastra.cfg file, you'll need to play to find your best settings...
headset tx gain: n
headset sidetone gain: n
handset tx gain: n
handset sidetone gain: n
handsfree tx gain: n
Each of these parameters can be adjusted by + / - 5 db
Example 1:
headset tx gain: -5
(reduce the headset transmit gain by 5 db)
Example 2:
handset tx gain: 10
(increase the handset transmit gain by 10 db)
I use a 9133i as my primary desk phone for over a year, I don't care that I can have a 501/601/480ict on my desk, the 9133i does the job well for me. It's also very reliable.
-jjshoe
Hybrid??!!
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 5:43pm
@ Kerryg
Yes, it does "distract it from being hybrid". Sorry if I insulted you in anyway as that is the least of my intentions but to get things straight. I am just trying to be plain and un-confusing here. The use of the word "hybrid" in the VoIP industry EXPLICITLY ONLY MEANS the use of PSTN circuits and SIP/ITSP/packet switched networks on the same PBX system, so I don't see how that same word applies to the Fonality offering if not just to create some sort of confusion or deceit. A phone system is either hybrid or it is not, and in the case of TB Pro it is not because it does not carry the components of a hybrid system which are as stated time and time again PSTN circuits and packet switched networks...so why try to use the word anyway? The sort of misconception resulting from such mis-use of industry terms is what this thread is referring to. I will suggest you call your service "remote backup", "remote access", "remote configuration", or "remote service while your PBX is local", etc....but not the VoIP industry word "hybrid"....please, I beg you.
We have been using the
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 5:45pm
We have been using the phrase hybrid-hosted for 4 years and have never had anyone complain about it. Hybrid does NOT just mean what you think it means. In the PBX industry, the Hybrid is when you switch from a 2 pair PSTN line to a 1 pair PSTN line. It is at this hybrid point that is the cause of most echo. Hybrid is also used to describe a system that supports both telco circuits and voip circuits. Hybrid simply means the mixing of different technologies, in our case, part hosted, part customer premise. It applies quite well to our model. I'm really sorry this is such a sticking point for you.
Pulease!!
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 6:40pm
I will leave it at that. You know the truth but choose to ignore it and instead create confusion to suit business model. Yes, by definition "hybrid" is the use of two different things in one system, but all professions have their use of the word "hybrid". Cars for instance will use hybrid ONLY for cars that use different fuel technologies in same car. Like wise in VoIP the only use of the word "hybrid" has already being explained as pertains to the two ways of voice delivery. But then you guys are trying to say your data bakup service is hybrid!!!...unheard of sir. Nobody in VoIP ever calls any other thing hybrid outside combining PSTN and packet switched networks. IT CIOs and gurus have talked and taken sides with either but not on a hybrid model which is pretty hard to even fathom being the only form of "hybrid" there can ever be in VoIP yet. And hybrid technologies of any kind will kick in with full features as when both technologies are in operation such that no difference will be noticed. But in the case of your hybrid, once internet service goes down that is it for the "hybrid". When you are talking about data, what is hybrid about it? I am sure quite a lot of people will continue to have misconceptions to your benefit.
In my day hybrid meant part
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 7:04pm
In my day hybrid meant part PBX part and Key System. I believe if it's called a hybrid or whatever is a minor point - It's basically a catch phase to help *SELL* more systems - Oh, there is there point - sell more systems... Can it be done, only time will tell.
Bart
Non-viable.
Wed, 09/05/2007 - 7:58pm
Thank you Bart....that is a perfect example of a system that can still fully support calls even if wither of the key or pbx fails. You and I as well as everyone else know what we are talking about and the intent of such intentional mis-use of industry terms. I am all for selling more systems but also doing it without controversy such as this...doing it sensibly. I will not for the sake of doing more business try to deceive people with terms or unjustifable business model.
no attempt to decieve
Thu, 09/06/2007 - 12:44am
techieg,
The term hybrid-hosted came up innocently almost four years ago when I was pitching the model of half-hosted / half-premise, part VoiP / part PSTN, intelligence in the cloud-but-able-to-function-with-Internet-down to a friend of mine. He called it "hybrid hosted" and i thought it was clever so it stuck. We have been using it to describe PBXtra ever since. This was in late 2003. trixbox Pro is built off of the same half-premise, half-hosted architecture so we used the same term with it.
There was no attempt to deceive, and honestly you have taught me a thing or two about the use of hybrid as you have been using it. I hadn't heard that before this post.
Non-hybrid.
Thu, 09/06/2007 - 2:47am
I understand the innocence with which it might have come about but once the original part VoIP/part PSTN side of it is missing (you only pitched it ut did not actually implemet it) then I am sorry but you cannot use the word "hybrid". It is misleading. Here is a link to tons of companies that do online backup and admin for Windows and other server systems with 24/7 access; http://www.google.com/search?q=online+backup&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq... . They do not even call it hybrid since the same data is premise-based and hosted. Words like ebackup, remote backup, ibackup, evault, edrive, idrive, etc are smartly used to clearly describe and/or brand the offerings (even for a data-only area in IT that really has no care/use for the word "hybrid"). Even Iron Mountain has livevault.com , learn from these companies, they run corporate america due to their clear and concise business model and good use of terms. It is unwise to claim innocence in an industry where there is already a standard use for a term such as "hybrid", then you must always have this explanation in parenthesis right next to you guys' use of the word "hybrid". On first contact with Fonality I was heavily deceived by this but due to my industry knowledge and experience I had to pose the required questions which brought me to understand the mis-use of this term by Fonality, even the reps I spoke with had no explanation for such blunder. I am only just voicing it now after a long while.
You need to go Google
Thu, 09/06/2007 - 5:01am
You need to go Google "hybrid" and start adding industry terms to it. It is nothing more than a marketing buzz word. I have been an IT director for a large company for 10 years and in IT for 18. If you are selling something to me and tell me it is Hybrid this or that, it has zero meaning to me until I know what those functions do. I have Hybrid-Firewalls (proxied and stateful), Hybrid-Networks... blah blah
"August 16, 2007
Call center and CRM software reseller Promero is reportedly now offering a “Hosted Hybrid” hosted call center solution featuring Oracle's (News - Alert) Contact Center Anywhere solution. Promero is a member of the Oracle Partner Network."
You need to get on Promero's forums, because they are taking it one step further and actually using the phrase backwards. Not only is it Hosted, but the hosting is Hybrid rather than being a Hybrid that is Hosted and it is part of a phone system/call center. I have no clue what they are doing..
Member Since:
2007-02-28